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density and there's enough commerce, enough population, then in the early part of the 19th century they get going and they really take off in the 1830s. >> so that's when it's fair to say for the first time that journalism is a business? >> oh, yes. it's clear by then. >> now, as much as people make fun of us, so i have to ask -- >> more power to you. >> when did the notion of journalism as a professional come on the scene in? >> that is still contested terrain, in the since -- >> you and i both remember we're going into journalism, we are upset by college kids were going into journalism. >> yes, and you still here today once in a while, you know, if you find the right kind of a person, you can get a barroom stool argument going over the necessity of journalism instruction. in fact that apprentice model that you and i came across when we were starting out, has really been thrown overboard because no one, almost no one in the news business any longer can afford to have someone on the payroll just while the getting instructed and learning the ropes. so a lot of that training role of
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